Eternal Flames...


In response to flames going back and forth between Mike Grehan and John Scott SeoBuzzBox recently launched a category called SEO fight club.

There really has been a good amount of controversy around the SEO space recently, and surprisingly I have stuck clear of it.

I don't like to see my friends bicker back and forth, but I do enjoy lurking at a good flame occasionally. Do you? If so, where are your favorite places to read flames?

My favorite recent flame locations are

It took me a while to learn it, but in the end almost everyone involved in the ongoing flames ends up looking like an ass, at least for a bit.


Flames Wars

well Mike, Greg and Todd are my friends and I stand by my Friends !! ... John Scott can suck my dick :0 in this industry friends are all you ever really have...

so Aaron you offically NOT on the fence so you better pick a side :)


I think ...

I believe there is a difference between flaming and discussing. I could of course be childish and tell Mike to suck my dick, but I don't think that would be the most professional thing to do. Instead I will simply continue to question his criticisms , and point out his the error of his statements, such as the claim that I create a Jill Whalen hate site.

Flaming is never productive, by definition. Debate, however, holds potential.


Nice move with the choice of pic John.

Now people really aren't going to think you're a complete wanker.

It took me a while to learn

It took me a while to learn it, but in the end almost everyone involved in the ongoing flames ends up looking like an ass, at least for a bit.

I don't know any of them, other than by name, but none of them is covering themselves in glory over this one. To me it is symbolic of the SEO business crumbling from within in the face of the irresistible force of the search engine algos.


John ... Childish ... then you use a picture of retarded child to prove your point ... well done


Dave, I am totally with you

Dave, I am totally with you - all you got is friends and you better stick to them and defend them whenever you have to. So, thats what I do.

But, the dick-sucking thing I will leave to you and Scott, Dave - I really don't like hairy men doing that to me :)

right playtime is over

hey KIDS playtime is over now get back in the classroom and get some work done, as for the photo of the disabled child yeah, believe it or not the guy is disabled and not a FUCKING retard, how would you feel if a member of your family was in that situation and was called by that name, its not a nice word to use guys, not nice at all

John I think it is absolutely disgusting to use that photo and you should be totally ashamed of yourself.

Wow is right

I have to say I never had two men fighting over ME before! lol

{Wishing I could just go crawl under a rock now. It's odd to seemingly be at the center of a fight, with information from like 2 or 3 years ago which has no relevance or bearing on today being discussed.}

Couple of things to set the record straight. John Scott was wrong about me ever thinking links were spam, just as Mike was wrong in thinking that John ever had a hate site about me. The only thing I ever said back those many years ago was that linking wasn't everything in SEO, just like I still say today.

John didn't have a hate site to my knowledge, but he did have some very nasty posts on his site directed towards me which were basically full of untrue info.

I bear no ill will towards John (or anyone else for that matter) and he and I are on "friendly" terms at this point in time. Meaning that he will occasionally message me about something of interest, or vice versa.

I was disappointed that he chose to use a keyword phrase that basically just promoted his own site for the contest he started as I think it would have been more fun if it were simply neutral keywords. But I do understand how he probably thought that having Greg Boser making pages that used his brand (V7N) on them would be the ultimate irony.

I have known Greg Boser for many years, and although we haven't always seen eye-to-eye on SEO stuff (although I think we're closer to agreeing on most of it these days) he has never to my knowledge ever publicly said a bad word about me or anyone else in the industry.

One thing about the old generation of SEOs, it seems that there has always been some mutual respect between all of us. I think that perhaps it's because we've met each other in real life and have hung out together in bars and things. We know each other for the genuine people we are, and not just our stances on SEO. I know Greg to be a great father who is/was heavily involved in coaching his kid's sports teams and traveling with the teams all over when they win championships.

The newer generation can get a bit uppity and seem to think that the way to make their place in the SEO world is to diss the old guard. In a way it does seem to work to at least gain them the respect of their peers, but it's not going to make them any fans from the older generation of SEOs. (And I don't mean old as in age, but just more the way Danny separated the generations a few weeks ago.)

It would be wonderful if people could agree to disagree about certain subjects without it getting personal. I disagree with Mike G. about many things, especially the whole aging delay thing, but it doesn't mean we can't be friends. (His interview with Aaron P. shows me even more just how much he STILL doesn't get the aging delay -- but whatever!)

Ok, so now let's all sing a nice little song and all be friends.... :)

yes, the newer generation

yes, the newer generation needs to learn how to get love in the SEOConference/blogosphere.

Repeat after me: All other well-known SEOs and SEO bloggers are "great". Now internalize it, parrot it, and in a year you'll be "great" too :-)

Flaming will not get you anywhere, nor will making fun of disabled people.

And yes, this is coming from a guy who got spanked for 'flaming' recently as well.

Thank you to Threadwatch for

Thank you to Threadwatch for hijacking my blog post. It doesn’t bother me though, I appreciate the backlink. It is also good that the negativity stays over here, I don’t want too much bad algorithmic karma (it can really destroy a new sites trust rank). :)

And I am no expert but have a couple blogs, I am seeing that no answer is correct and things are changing very rapidly. To argue about one piece of the pie makes us all sound a little novice yes? So Mikes simple "Make good websites" idea is not a bad one.

The only thing that is true is developing a kind of site flavor, start small and build out, right Mr. Cutts? Mr. Cutts has started a webmaster school but people appear to be fighting too much and don't have any time to apply OR listen. I am starting to like him again, let me go check my adsense.

Damn... daveN, you are like a pitbull!

Carry on

>nor will making fun of

>nor will making fun of disabled people.<

Yeah, I admit to taking the joke a little personal myself. I don't like to brag, but I took the bronze in '72 for the 2.5 meter dash.

Maybe it's just me, but I

Maybe it's just me, but I enjoy the drama, the pathos, the passion. We're witnessing an industry run the gamut of human emotion from a to b. And look at the link bait!!!!

The smartest thing we could all do is orchestrate more of these headline grabbing catfights. We could pick a topic, throw generous numbers of dick-sucking offers and photos of mentally challenged athletes at one another, grab the links and then sit in beer joints in exotic locations and share nights of drunken debauchery togehter. Come home, sober up and do it agin.

I'll start.

I heard Greg's mother went over to Darrons house and made Todd's mother wear John's army boots. How unprofessional is that?

Then Todd's mom went up Jill's hill but Jill vehemently disagreed the hill was actually going up. While they remain friends and share a mutual respect, it will be quite some time before the industry recovers.

Beers are on me!

Pass the popcorn please.

Pass the popcorn please. This running SEO soap beats going to the movies :)


Thank you to Threadwatch for hijacking my blog post

The officially sanctioned term is Threadjacking™, and don't feel bad it's happened to the almost everyone (myself included).


Too bad it's not a chick fight as watching you hairy asses duke it out isn't as fun and DaveN tried to turn it into a cock fight which is way over the top.

Come on, everyone make smoochy faces and get over it.

but it's not going to make

but it's not going to make them any fans from the older generation of SEOs.

This statement has been nagging at me all morning.

One thing I notice about "old school seo's" is many of them seem to think that people want their approval. Maybe some do.. I'd rather gain customers though and so would most of the "newer seo's" I talk too.


this isn't directed at Jill in particular. Its just my observation of "old seo's"

The whole approval thing

The whole approval thing sorta weirds me out...I have been an outsider everywhere I have went, and yet in this industry uber respected journalists like Danny Sullivan and some of the coolest SEOs ever like NFFC, DaveN and Monkey seem to like me (or at least lead me to believe they do ;)

And oddly enough I think I gained some approval from of the old hat SEOs by doing things that probably pissed off other SEOs. I think the best way to gain approval is to not actively seek it.

webprofessor, was just

webprofessor, was just thinking the same thing!

Aaron... So you believe a

Aaron... So you believe a segment out there does seek approval from established members of the industry ?


Wow... this thread is eavesdropping on the psychiatric notes of the ld-school SEOs.

Danny's "generations" thing was interesting for the so-called "first generation" folks, and perhaps the wannabee ones. I even think it was intended to be conciliatory...thought provoking, perhaps helping bring the industry together instead of fostering the old-school clique.

Other than that, it was like Darwin's thesis - ripe to be wrongly applied in a social context. Did Jill just do it? Did everyone one not officially "GenOne" get lumped together with John Scott? Puhleeeze.

I completely agree with the "all you got is friends" mantra, but I also leave open the possibility than anyone has a chance to become my friend through their own actions and behavior. It has nothing to do with what my existing friends might think about him or her.

New School SEO: it's all about metrics and performance.
Old School SEO: it's all about links; hypertext and social.



I still think links are important, both on the Web and in the Real World.

In fact I think an element of TrustRank exists among SEOs in said Real World... and just like in Google... the knob may be turned up just a bit too high, and we're all missing out on some good but new ideas/people... then again maybe I am just taking these Google analogies too far!

So you believe a segment out

So you believe a segment out there does seek approval from established members of the industry ?

A far greater number of people are driven by a need for identity or ego than for said so well by Seth here

New School SEO: it's all about metrics and performance.
Old School SEO: it's all about links; hypertext and social.

I guess that makes me old school then? Hmm...

brillian analogy Andy!


What I admire about Aaron Wall is that he is humble, even though he has made it to the top as a recognized member of this "community" or “niche” he still is unsure of himself which is righteous. Approval? Industry? What the hell is that? =P

Old School more like High School

Call it linkbaiting, good controversy, or web politics, I call it immature high school behaivor. For an industry that craves mainstream attention and respect from the business world, it amazes me how many people consider this kind of publicity good. So when the NY Post writes an article on SEOs, do we really want it to mention the great contests filled with name calling, retard pictures, and hate sites? But hey, it got everyone a few links so it's ok. You can also dress a baby up in a Nazi costume and get links too.

"dress a baby up in a Nazi costume"

[url='s_law] Godwins Law [/url]

"There is a tradition of

"There is a tradition of protocol in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread in which the comment was posted is over and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress".

LOL...and please stop backlinking Wiki, they are cluttering the SERPS and putting legitimate "mom and pops" out of business. ;)

Where Did It All Go Wrong John Scott?

Guess who said this on their website :-

"Another thing I noticed on both webmaster forums I frequented was a lack of humanity. I use the word humanity for lack of a better word. The word that I would prefer to use would imply humanity, compassion, understanding and a sense of community."

In my job I get to meet 'retards' every week or so and I correspond with them most every day. Its not beyond the bounds of possibility that some of the members here suffer from this kids condition. You really are shameless for displaying that photo and then legging it without any explanation or apology to the child and his family. Without having a clue who this child is you've exposed him to further ridicule and he no doubt has a hard enough life without upset from a dickhead like you.

That picture has been on the

That picture has been on the internet since forever [over 5 years I am sure] I don't think that poor kid could get anymore exposure than he has already gotten.


That picture has been on the internet since forever [over 5 years I am sure] I don't think that poor kid could get anymore exposure than he has already gotten.

The image isn't what really offended me, it was the fact that images like that are used on video game boards between 13 year olds debating who is a better Doom 3 player. Just didn't think I'd ever see it on a professional's message board.

>Just didn't think I'd ever

>Just didn't think I'd ever see it on a professional's message board.<

I can easily agree that this message board is visited by professionals, but I don't know about being labeled a professional's message board. After one post about ass clowns, another about dick sucking and yet another about a handicapped kid, it would seem picking out one to be rightgeously indignant about is a little over the top.

This is a tempest in a teapot I assure you. This will pass and it will have no negative impact on any kind of global SEO perception. This is the internet. Freedom reigns. We are all free to be just as rude, opinionated, ignorant and confrontational as we want to be. It is just people doing what people do. It is eye-opening. It is relevant. It is educational. It is entertaining. It is wonderful.

and, if we grab a link or two while we are at it, who's it REEEALLLYYY hurting?

and I bet daveN still finds

and I bet daveN still finds work. ;-)

*Eating popcorn* Carry on.

*Eating popcorn*

Carry on.

Massa, I find your ideas


I find your ideas intriguing and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

I spoke about SEO with a

I spoke about SEO with a freelance journalist who writes for sites like the NYT today...and I assure you this thread was not mentioned.

I think she was a great lady who was fun to talk to, but in general I think most journalists sorta decide how they want the story to sound before they start digging too deeply and then just run with it.

Doing a bit of research here and there and leaving a bit out here and there any of us can end up sounding like a the world's biggest sinner or saint...or something like that.

I am embarrassed

looking at people like DaveN and Mike Grehan and their lack of class and manners. So should everyone in this industry be. I find it surprising that anyone would want to associate himself with such individuals. That speaks very poorly of our industry as a whole that anyone that low could be accepted as equals within our community. Those 2 are yes men and what DaveN has suggested for John Scott to do to him ... wouldn't be a surprise to me if that is how Mike and Dave have gotten your foot into the door somehow.
Aaron doesn't have to pick any side, Dave. You don't get it. He is not on your level, he's intelligent enough to understand seo without sucking up to anyone, and he is mature enough to choose his battles well and not fall into the herd metality. But then again, if it wasn't for following someone, you and Mike Grehan would be working at Mc Donalds or cleaning trainstation bathrooms together.

Have a great day everyone!

Mike Dammann

Nick was right

Every so often you need one these it just gets too funny ...


MikeD - I don't really know daveN but the Mike Grehan who I know today is a great guy really. Dedicating more time to his family, getting past that awful court battle with the evil person who stabbed his child. Living large and not afraid to speak his mind, I respect that. It was cool to also find that John Scott, Jill Whalen and others are good people too. Don't sweat the small stuff; we don't care about your past battles in forums out here.

Anyone checked out each others blogs lately? Graywolf had me spit coffee all over my desk in laughter tonight. Anyone seen daveN's great cartoons? Pilipp Lenessen is insanely bright, he should design his own search engine, wait, isn't he the guy who design the new Patriot Search? ;)

If you are not having fun do something else.


One good thing about this thread is I found a nice place to download some Bangles songs at the top of the page.

as ali g would say 'sepect

I believe it's called respect. I have watched many of the ol school for years now. You certainly don't know me but I know you - hehe well, sort of. You all have taught me loads and in numerous ways. Would really love to come meet you all someday. I have been into seo since late 96 but I don't really have the desire to toot horns or create a persona for myself. Too may indians not enough cheifs. Don't bag the cheifs - they got the ball rolling in the first place.

This new school vs ol school war is such a joke, re-read your posts so called new-schoolists (your sucking hard, lol) - not all but many who have evoloved a public persona over the past few years. Seeking approval without respect is very hard. Good luck guys - why seek approval if you don't need it?

>>Seeking approval without

>>Seeking approval without respect is very hard.

The mistake would be in seeking approval. When I see folks seeking approval from others I lose respect right there, end of story.

Me too John, ROTFLMAO.

Me too John, ROTFLMAO.

From Monty Python and the Holy Grail

I don't know why, but I found this quite appropriate, I don't see the testicles for castanets in the thread, but most of the rest is.


Registered Address: 20 Fitzroy Square, London W1P6BB

Registered Number 1138069 England

August 5th, 1974.

Dear Mike,

The Censor's representative, Tony Kerpel, came along to Friday's screening at Twinkenham and he gave up his opinion of the film's probable certificate.

He thinks the film will be AA, but it would be possible, given some dialogue cuts, to make the film an A rating, which would increase the audience. (AA is 14 and over, and A is 5-14).

For an 'A' we would have to:

Lose as may shits as possible

Take Jesus Christ out, if possible

Lose "I fart in your general direction" Lose "the oral sex"

Lose "oh, fuck off"

Lose "We make castanets out of your testicles"

I would like to get back to the Censor and agree to lose the shits, take the odd Jesus Christ out and lose Oh fuck off, but to retain 'fart in your general direction', 'castanets of your testicles' and 'oral sex' and ask him for an 'A' rating on that basis.

Please let me know as soon as possible your attitude to this.

Yours sincerely,

Mark Forstater

Eww John, do you like to

Eww John, do you like to have men suck on your ching ching?

Loren, DaveN wa "otoko"

Loren, DaveN wa "otoko" janai. Men yori, okama chan kana?

De, ore ga namerou nante iuttenai. Kare wa nametai nara, maa kangaeru kedo, iya to omouyo.

Sonde, saikin nande v7n no PM ni henji senno?

Okama ka 'new half', mo

Okama ka 'new half', mo wakaranai deskedo, mo sono image de, henna kanji narimasu yo.

Moshi ano hito wa nani ga nametai, ore no aparto no chikaku ni henna friendly massage otoko iru yo.

Mo sukoshi ano PM ni henji suru. Mo wasareta. Saikin amari biru nomu dakara.

Biru nomu yo ne, nihon ni

Biru nomu yo ne, nihon ni iru to. Mainichi nomu you ni naru. SEJ ni tsuite hanashi ga aru kara kondo PM shite chodai ne.


I presume thats one of the universal words like OK and beer?

I also presume you're either both going to start talking a language we all understand or take it to PM shite?

Merci beacoup :)

My sincere apologies,

My sincere apologies, Gurtie, I realized people would be getting notifications after I posted that. It was very inconsiderate of me. Sorry.

he said sorry

It took me a while to post a response as I had to clean the keyboard and screen as I spat out my coffee seeing John Scott apologise, he is a human after all and does have feelings..

either that

or I'm just very scary ;)

I love this stuff...

Especially the old skool v new skool stuff :)

Some people complicate things too much but its really simple to work out. There is a natural human tendency to be part of a community, a collective, a "club" if you like. Some individuals resist that, why they are so bitter about it I don't understand. Some people "join" a community for what they can get out of it. For some people though the motivation for being part of a "club" isn't what they can get out of it, its not the fact that their friends have got their back that is the motivation, its the fact that you have got your friends backs.

Old skool rule one is stand by your friends. I was going to write that "those who disagree can suck my retarded nazi dick" but decided not to.

A real friend is one who walks in when the rest of the world walks out. - Walter Winchell

Ugly silliness

What I don't understand about all this ugly silliness, is why Greg trying to hijack John's event, makes Greg the good guy and John the bad guy.

EDIT: I'm also curious as to whether people think that focusing on disagreements is helpful to professional reputation?

Better to move on and leave flaming in private, yes?

sorry ..

I was just out buying a new Car ...

glad too see someone of mike dammann class and quailty jump in <- Mikes Class





Dave, you link dropper!

Nice job Guys!!

I'm sure that you are familiar with the V7ndotcom Elursrebmem SEO contest that's going on... well it seems there is this gentleman down in Louisanna that wants to win that contest for a charitable cause and his link was posted over on the Band of Gonzos forum tonight.

You'll find his site here When you land on the homepage look over there to the right side of the header, you'll find a link titled "Black Hats" that takes you to this page and on that page you will find discussion of what an ill mannered lot the SEO Community AS A WHOLE is, and there you will find a Black Hats link that points here - - Look familiar guys?? If not, just look up there at the address line in your browser window!

And, upon landing on this thread I find that a few of you guys appear to prove his theory correct!

At present that site has 14,000+ links, and counting and it is sitting page 1, #9 in the damn contest! You guys are truly presenting a shining example of our industry here... is there by chance a moderator in the house that can clean this mess up?!


...and when Phil L. blogs about you it can push you to #1, check it out

Did I just cast a vote for Phil or that "light guy"? ;)

Oh, his podcast is pretty viral eh? I wish that guy luck, sounds like a good fellah, don't sweat the small stuff, nobody is watching you guys, nobody really cares...

celiac disease

Yeah, he did the xmas lights for celiac disease thing

I am going to snip the

I am going to snip the active SEO contest links if they point at sites I do not this thread and site will otherwise quickly become polluted with SEO contest links.


Certainly works for me Aaron, oversight on my part, as it damn well was not my intent to allow him any links!

snip snip

snipping is often not a bad thing, I removed all reference from John and Mike's "interviews" (sorry aaron i will think of a new word..hehe) and put them in another post where it will be deleted if it ever goes higher in the search.

Thanks for the link

but Mr Dammann if you want to start mud slinging so be it ..

first the V7N comp .. I have nothing to do with it or the Greg Boser one for that fact, so your post in the Frog forum you run is incorrect.

But I do have quite a bit of dirt on you now btw ;) anyway off to spend some time with my wife and kids



Aaron, I would do more than just snip the contest links.. I would just add nofollows to every linkout from all posts to all threads. You run a very respectible source that the industry depends on and everyone at Searchguild (my normal hangout) respects you and your advice.

You don't need to pick sides when two 5 year olds start throwing toys at each other... so what is the diffrence here? You are doing the right thing.

Now to these guys that are causing such a stir?

What is the point of people having a pissing match? Honestly as mentioned eariler... we are an industry that has been given a black eye for several reasons:

* The amount of snake oil being sold 'We can give you any keyword you want for 99/month' ... and then people go out for things like this.. of course get burned.. and it gives our whole industry a bad name.

* The Search Engines Hate Us ... they like the SEM side.. but they hate the SEO side... in short, they wish our whole industry would just go away... and who could blame them with the amount of garbage we see out on the web. If I were a search engine, I would be pissed at the stuff going on in the first place.

* Then this garbage... you guys think with this pissing match you guys are helping the industry as a whole? I have to fight for each and every client during the sales process to prove that we are a growing, yet respectible industry... instead I spend at least 20% of the time defending the industry as a whole during the inital conversation..

I am sitting on the top of page 2 or bottom of Page 1 (depending on DC) for the contest based on my research I have about a 65% chance of getting on the top 5 by the end of the contest..... guess what people... if this continues I am pulling now... I know 'less comptition for me' is what most of you guys are thinking..

It's not the money.. it's how can people have respect for an industry that looks like a bunch of hackers trying see who has the bigger stick? I don't know if I want my company involved in this at all anymore.

At first I thought it was a good contest... like the Ultramarine one that SearchGuild had in 2004 .. instead it turns out to be nothing more than a 1800's style mud slinging political contest.

I had no idea this flame throwing battle was taking place.

I wish you guys all the luck... but our industry, as fragil as it is, could not survive levels of garbage like what has been going on.

Well this started as a bit

Well this started as a bit of a jab back and forth between a couple of my friends that I thought would quickly clear up. I never realized it would escalate to this level.

I am going to close this thread because I do not wish to participate in the ongoing ugliness.

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